إنضمامك إلي منتديات استراحات زايد يحقق لك معرفة كل ماهو جديد في عالم الانترنت ...

انضم الينا
استراحات زايد الصفحة الرئيسية


إضافة رد
 
LinkBack أدوات الموضوع انواع عرض الموضوع
  #1  
قديم 11-01-2009, 03:10 AM
عضو ماسي
بيانات محروم.كوم
 رقم العضوية : 503
 تاريخ التسجيل : Dec 2007
الجنس : female
علم الدوله :
 المشاركات : 2,100,610
عدد الـنقاط :3341
 تقييم المستوى : 2139

Rather than answer or post in the other thread with Off-topic answers* I have chosen to author this new Thread.

Background:
Our organization was founded in 1989. In 1995 we began to look at a web presence* and we assigned a few of our staff to spend the next few years participating in discussion groups* such as Prodigy* CompuServe* AOL* and UBB boards.

What they discovered included the following:
  1. Open registration for any name with an email address
  2. Volunteer Moderators and Admins that were appointed by the board owners primarily for their popularity or friendship* and not for their proven managerial skills in dealing with all sorts of personalities and psychological issues. If a member had a self-centered board reputation* but he/she was a personal friend to the owner* then promoting a self-centered egotist to the level of a moderator could escalate the member to that of a tyrant. And tyrants usually will kill off members for the smallest of reasons by banning them.
  3. Although many discussion groups were managed by owners with excellent skills* there are many other sites where the content is excellent* but the owners permit the egotism of the leaders to look first to their selfish interest* and second to their power to ban if any member has a respectful difference of opinion.
  4. One early board banned any member for participating too much. At our site we would have opened a dedicated forum for his/her advice and helpfulness.
  5. By 1999 we had chosen a forum software program to use. But we waited a month or two and found that some of the developers had moved to the new VBulletin software. So we began in 1999.
  6. Although we had learned from previous boards what not to do* we also learned from other groups what to do. We used the standard Forum Rules* and started small with it. Most of our customers had already signed another document off line titled Oath & Code of Ethics. Later on* we added the Oath & Code of Ethics to the forum rules.
  7. In the past 10 years we have added to our Forum Rules as required.... when unprojected questions (such as the use of forum signatures and subsequent advertising of outside links) came upon us.
  8. We also added the requirement of a real first and last name and the use of a drivers license to verify they are an adult and who they are. We permit the use of an alias if the member requests it* but we maintain his/her original ID offline.
  9. Our Oath & Code of ethics also includes the provision that if a member violates the Oath/COE on another web page* then their account at our site will be temporarily limited until a personal one-on-one private communication is resolved. This addition to our rules was polled to our 40*0000 members and voted upon by our Board of Directors who are elected and sustained by our members. Therefore* if a member agrees to be a law abiding citizen at our site* and then participates at another site under his name or identifiable User Name* such as illegally promoting child pornography* then see a conflict in his actions and beliefs.
  10. Did our strict rules cost us new members? The answer is "no". And our members have expressed their delight in a dedicated forum titled Testimonials* where thousands have posted their sustaining comments using their real first and last names and locations. Although we have one of the strictest rules on the internet* the atmosphere and tone of our 400 sub-forums has scored a 100% in favor.
  11. Are we for everyone? Answer: No. If a member feels an online registration system for his drivers license is too risky* then he can provide a copy of his ID and we will approve it. For for irresponsible internet flamers and trollers* they simply choose to register some where else where they can continue with their mission. For spammers and all the out-of-country identity thieves who use automated software tools to register for forums* the latest VBulletin tools has eliminated that.
  12. We also have turned OFF instant approval for new members. The applications go into moderation in the Admin CP for a personal quick and easy review of the items the new member has listed. Once approved* they obtain Level 1 Access to about 25 sub-forums (also known as the User Group "Registered" which we have retitled.
  13. Even though the new member agreed to the Oath* Code of Ethics* and Forum Rules* we also require them to Post their Forum Agreement to the thread version for all to see that they have agreed.
  14. To progress to the Level 2* 3* 4 and 5 areas of our site.... members upgrade to the additional paid services of their choosing.
  15. All sub-forums are closed off to Google Spiders* with the exception of a handful of public forums where non members can view and read.
  16. Other organizations have held off for 15 years from starting their interactive discussion groups. They feared their site would be overrun by all of the undesirables. But in the last few years I have seen church sites* such as http://tech.lds.org purchase VBulletin with the additional rules and safeguards to keep out flamers and trollers.
  17. There are many levels you can choose from to help eliminate or better manage forum members. As an owner* you have the freedom and the choice.
  18. For our moderators* super mods* and administrators: We have a dedicated private Moderator Clubhouse where they are trained for an average of 2 months (starting as a Moderator) on how we manage the members* and the proper use of their Moderator Tools. This training requirement has resulted in having the most respectful group of moderators for their skills* management* and psychological training on how to deal with issues. They are certainly not appointed for their popularity. They are chosen and sustained by our members. When they progress to Sr Moderator* and then to Admin.... as an Admin they would have already proven they can post policy based on the policies already established by their Admin Team. Admins usually take over a year to obtain that calling.
  19. As for those we have banned* we do not use the title "Banned". Instead* we use a title that is non-descriptive. The reason is simple. Most banned members return to us seeking reinstatement. Their account is reviewed* and typically they are reinstated after they have reposted their sustaining agreement to the Oath* Code of Ethics* and Forum Rules. If they were banned for a private act* then the reinstatement goes well with no fan fare. If they were banned because they posted something for all to see* then they must post a public apology for all to see. Private matters stay private* public matters must be corrected in public.
  20. We do not delete any posts or topics. If required* we archive them in a confidential area of our site for potential use if an issue arises where the original comment needs to be seen again. (Members cannot delete any comments. They can edit their comments within 15 minutes* but after that it takes a moderator to perfom edits. With the use of the Preview tool and spellcheck* there is rarely a need to make an edit after 15 minutes. If a factual error was authored* then the member can use the quote button and post the correction. If the post or thread needs to be corrected in the best interest of our site* then a moderator can make the edit* but a copy of the original post is archived in a private area in case it needs to be referred to.
  21. With the new VB 4 Suite* we will be making some changes to allow our members to use many of the added features. Some of the tools we have turned off for some lower level members may be turned on once we become trained with the new VB 4 Suite.
  22. But our overall principle and forum mission for the last ten years has been able to gain a reputation of total respect among members without using too many rules. Currently* the rules we have appear to be well balances (as our polling shows). Although have grown to over 110*000 members* we moved 70*000 members to another site* leaving us a little over 41*000 and a half-million discussions at our main forum site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Copeland

1) This is the first major version where I don't think VBulletin put a lot of effort into designing the look* feel* text* fonts* colors* etc. In all previous VB major upgrades* the look was sharp* crisp* and gave the view a feeling of quality.

Yes* it may only be a minor change in making it look like its worth $260. But as a customer when I buy a Cadillac* I don't expect to see a cheap looking bucket of bolts and steel glued together* even though the motor train and everything under the hood may or may not be superior. I expect to see the leather seats* wood panels* custom looks* and so forth before any release.

If VB did not put quality effort in the cosmetics of the software look* then what else did they compromise under the hood??

2) For $260 (Retail)* I should not have to make the look of the software as if it was quality. It should look like quality out of the box.

3) I suspect there will be sample beta sites to go to* but why should I be required to modify this software to look any better?

Sorry* VB* but this look reminds me of some really cheap free software out there. We only have 40*000 members (and we are a paid site)* but if they saw this cartoon and faded look* it would diminish the value we are presenting to our customers.

4) And more importantly* as I have asked in the previous post about a courtesy refund offer after the final version is released* I feel there are other compromises under the hood. Who knows? The operating system factors* php* and other internal engine parts may be so far away from anything in the Ver 3.8 engine* that it just won't work effectively without major customizations and hacks.

Above all* I would like assurances that either a courtesy extension for my $130 payment (due Friday) can be approved* and if not a courtesy refund is made available after I see what I am buying.

David



That's your opinion. I personally think the look of the new vB looks miles and away better than any of the older versions.

No* you're just being a jerk. Why would you not open a support ticket or email sales directly rather than try to stir up the hornets nest here?

Since you think there have been compromises under the hood* do you plan on doing a code review before you run this live? Or are you really just whining because you want to get your $130 back if you don't like the default style* which is pretty much expected that the end user (that's you) will change
.


Yes* my comments here are my personal opinion* and I am thankful for the VB Rules which permit personal opinions.

Calling me a "jerk" is of no offense to me personally* but it offended other members who read your comments. But the name calling would have gotten you a response from admins and moderators on scores of other forum sites. If the name calling is acceptable on your forum* then it is your choice to permit it. There are other grammar choices to choose from when member wishes to attack the merits of a post without making it personal.

Definition: Jerk
"Noun. An idiot or stupid person. An insensitive* selfish* ignorant* cocky person who is inconsiderate and does stupid things."

Support Tickets versus Posting a Thread?
I chose to get feedback and other opinions from forum members before considering a Support Ticket. As it turned out* the VB Staff replied to my thread and offered additional insight before my formation of an action to follow up with. As it turned out* the same VB Staff person in my thread was the one who helped me make a decision in my private support ticket. I believe VB Support Staff read the public threads in order to get needed feedback on their products* pricing* and policy. Twenty (20) heads are better than one* and the thread now serves a purpose for others to follow.

Hornets Nest?
That is an interesting characterization of respectful free speech within the forum rules. You will notice that true hornet nest topics have been removed. My thread remains open. And most of the posts are from respectful members who offered real help and opinions worth reading.

Compromises under the hood versus whining?
Read my Cadillac analogy above. Since I have made the purchase of VB 4 Suite* I have explored some screen shots and have determined VB 4 Suite (for the most part) has a superb engine under the hood. I also know for a fact there will be additional Patches released after the Final Version is offered. Buying a first year car change out (or a first year new Windows Operating System) has always proved that the under the hood parts of the first product were compromised compared to the proven model to follow a week to a year later.

As for your characterization of me whining* again I find it interesting.

Definition: Whining
"To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
A complaint uttered in a plaintive tone.
A subdued regret or lamentation."



On the other hand* customers who whine about anything (such as your whining about my posts) can serve a higher purpose for the vendor to obtain feedback from that one customer out of every 100 customers who have the same concern or complaint.

Wanting a Refund if I don't like it?
Sure* why not. I have been a loyal customer for ten years* have purchased every new edition VB has released. But this product is unlike anything in previous years (with maybe the exception of the VB 4 Forum Software Edition Only). Do I expect to use my courtesy refund request? No. But its nice to have it. Even Costco offers a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee on all DVDs* Software* everything in their store. I don't abuse their offer* but I happy to have the guarantee. I just end up buying more!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian
lets not call names* looking at david's user info i can say he has been here longer then some developers and if he does not like something "now" then there is a good reason for that.
i am not worried about money or refund* but if the end product is something i dont like then i will have to think about it...
i know u can customize the look and what not but i am paying good money for something that should be at least half descent out of the box.



I don't really care if he's been using vB since 1.0* he's being passive aggressive and stirring up a hornets nest when he shouldn't be. Plus* with his "tenure" here he should know better.

If he doesn't like the look of vb4* or doesn't like the pre-sale policy* or wants a refund then she should go and look at other software or wait until it's to 4.1 before he upgrades to it.



Passive Aggressive?
Hmmm. There's another interesting characterization* except this time the title does not apply to either my thread or my actions.

Definition: Passive Aggressive
  • "Negativistic personality trait is passive* sometimes obstructionist* resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations.
  • "Noncompliance is not indicative of true passive aggressive behavior* which is the manifestation of repressed* self-imposed oppression of emotions based on a need for acceptance."
Therefore* if there is Passive Aggressiveness in my posts* then this forum and my rights would have to be "repressed* self-imposed oppression of emotions based on a need for acceptance." Sorry* I don't agree with your characterization.

My Tenure does not mean anything?
Answers:
  1. If you are speaking for yourself* you are absolutely correct.
  2. If you are speaking about most members here* then again you are correct.
  3. If you are speaking of those members who consider for themselves how long and how loyal another member has been* then I disagree. I already know where I stand among some here.
  4. If you are speaking of the VB Staff here* then again you are mistaken. I know this because of the private communications I have had and how they have treated me because of my faithfulness and tenure. And if they view my tenure with good results* then I know they have treated others in similar matters.
The look of VB 4?
My opinion is one of 268 other members (48%) of those who chose to participate in a VB Poll. Only 22% (122 members) voted they like it. May I suggest you post your vote in the Poll* provided you missed voting.

As for the notion that looks means the under-the-hood engine is lacking too* I have a different opinion on that since I have made the purchase. Yes* I can modify the look. I suspect VB (based on the POLL) will be improving the look soon. If there was no "whining" or complaining or polling* then they would have probably left the look the same. Again* respectful free speech serves both the prospective customers and VB (who will get more sales when the look is revised)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
Well* I have 1*039 members on my site* have rules* no oath or "code of ethics*" or require real names (although several members do use them) on my forums*


Congratulations on your forum. I wish you the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
but if someone came on there and started whining and being passive aggressive (waah* I don't like the fonts* so rather than just change the text size in my browser* let me make my posts obnoxiously large) they'd be banned.



Please read Items # 2* 3* 4* and 19 regarding those who may ban and those who take a different approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
It's great and all that you have some really large board and make money from your community* but your $130 to upgrade your license is the same $130 that it cost me. So it's really a non-issue to start trying to throw your weight around with your 40k user site.


Weight? Yes* I could lose a few more pounds. But again* your characterization of anyone throwing their weight around here may be better found in the deleted threads. I don't believe I have to throw my weight. My credentials are what they are. And yours are too. To some members* your mention of having over 1000+ forum members is an awesome challenge to obtain. I have seen many active forums which only have 100 members. If I had a new forum and looked at your statistic of over 1000 members* I certainly would not take offense in thinking you were boasting about your success in an effort to belittle a new forum owner. I would look at exploring your forum to find out how I too can build members. You (and others) can be a positive role model for newcomers* if you choose to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC
And* the funny thing is* all of this whining and crying and you ended up buying it anyway.


Of course! If you study Sales you will find that a salesperson wants to hear questions and inquiries about the quality of the product or service offered. Salespersons do not want their customers to be silent. They use the dialog to sell the product by answering the questions* complaints* and other issues. They inform the customer (very much like what VB Staff did in my other thread). And if the salesperson feels they can make an adjustment to their offer* they will do that (for sure* because we have already seen better adjustments in the VB 4 offer since yesterday).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippySLC

By the way* if a user pays to join your site and doesn't like it* what's your refund policy?


Answer: 100% Satisfaction Full Refund.
(If products are involved* they receive a Refund Authorization to mail the products back to us)

We also have an A-Rating with the Better Business Bureau who has tracked our customer satisfaction for the last decade or so.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapta06
I think everyone has seen this post in the wrong light.


Frankly* if some of the members who posted here were posting at our site* their posts (not the whole thread) would have been censored. I guess that is why our forum has a reputation of having one of the most strict forum rules* oath* and code of ethics that all 40*000+ members must agree to* all using their real first and last name).

On the other hand* some of the members who have posted here have been very respectful of my intentions. If they wanted more clarity from me* I tried to comply. I am grateful for the on-topic helpfulness* and I will try to avoid reading where someone wanted to pee on my carpet in the confines of my own thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lapta06

VB are selling an unfunished product* which i personally think is wrong* but hey nothing to do with me how they market the product! It's like selling a car with a brand new engine* but not really sure how the engine will run or even look at the moment.


(See my Cadillac story above. Then again* there are customers who will faithfully buy anything because they want to be counted in on a deal. Sometimes what they buy turns in a lemon. I honestly don't think the original founders of VB would have permitted cancelling owned licenses and then insisting on buying an unseen untested product at a discounted that is higher than the owned license was.

Reputation is everything in business. In our business we have paid members going back to pre-internet who have a less expensive annual fee than current members pay. But it is the loyal customers we developed from 1989 that are still selling our service and products by offering their testimonials which produce sales and more customers. What VB has done is isolated may of those loyal customers who bought ten years ago (see my Join date). So if my colleagues ask what forum software to go with* I can no longer say VB because I simply do not know what the final version will look like* in addition to it being more expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lapta06
A refund option will never be offered.


I am beginning to feel the same way. My support ticket asking for an exception if I were to buy today was misinterpreted by their answer. I followed up with clarity* * *

(Outdated Comment: "but they have no yet responded and the clock is ticking. I suspect I will pass on the whole upgrade until next year when the full version has been released* along with the normal patches that always come with full releases).


Quote:
Originally Posted by lapta06
Not being given the option of a 30 day trail is a bit of a kick in the teeth but its something you have to live with.

The real question is how long will it be before its worth paying for VB4?



Most customers who have complaints on any product or service rarely speak up. I am one of those who do* because I know how important it is for my customers to let me know what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong.

My business professor said* "Only one customer out of 100 customers who have the same complaint will make the effort to contact upper management."

I think some of us here have spoke up with respect and necessity. Like you mention* it may not amount to any improvements or changes. But they can no longer use the excuse their customers never informed them.

Thank you so much for your post!

David


__________________________________________________ ____________________________

To All*

The above quotes and responses should be helpful in making up your own mind as to how you wish to manage your forum. Then again* if you choose to take an opposing view* then you certainly have the right to do that. In either event* we should be able to learn about other views and other personal opinions.

Again* my suggestions* comments* and opinions are not for everyone.

Thank you for your patience*

David
__DEFINE_LIKE_SHARE__
رد مع اقتباس
إضافة رد

مواقع النشر (المفضلة)

أدوات الموضوع
انواع عرض الموضوع

تعليمات المشاركة
لا تستطيع إضافة مواضيع جديدة
لا تستطيع الرد على المواضيع
لا تستطيع إرفاق ملفات
لا تستطيع تعديل مشاركاتك

BB code is متاحة
كود [IMG] متاحة
كود HTML معطلة
Trackbacks are متاحة
Pingbacks are متاحة
Refbacks are متاحة


المواضيع المتشابهه
الموضوع كاتب الموضوع المنتدى مشاركات آخر مشاركة
We have eliminated flamers* topic baiters* and spammers - Modified Forum Rules/Oath محروم.كوم منتدى أخبار المواقع والمنتديات العربية والأجنبية 0 11-01-2009 09:50 AM
We have eliminated flamers* topic baiters* and spammers - Modified Forum Rules/Oath محروم.كوم منتدى أخبار المواقع والمنتديات العربية والأجنبية 0 11-01-2009 09:40 AM
We have eliminated flamers* topic baiters* and spammers - Modified Forum Rules/Oath محروم.كوم منتدى أخبار المواقع والمنتديات العربية والأجنبية 0 11-01-2009 01:50 AM
We have eliminated flamers* topic baiters* and spammers - Modified Forum Rules/Oath محروم.كوم منتدى أخبار المواقع والمنتديات العربية والأجنبية 0 11-01-2009 01:40 AM
We have eliminated flamers* topic baiters* and spammers - Modified Forum Rules/Oath محروم.كوم منتدى أخبار المواقع والمنتديات العربية والأجنبية 0 11-01-2009 01:30 AM


الساعة الآن 12:04 PM


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2 TranZ By Almuhajir

RSS RSS 2.0 XML MAP HTML